An Interview with Andrea Max, Author of The Art of Exile
Author Interview #5
Andrea Max is a debut YA fantasy author with an interest in knowing the market, fancy coffee, niche perfumery, Jewish representation in fantasy, and creating spaces for writers to help other writers
We open with Ada admiring the statue of David. What art piece have you always wanted to visit and why?
AM: I’ve been extremely privileged to do a significant amount of traveling and have been to many of the most renowned museums around the world (as well as many of the lesser-known ones). Maybe that’s why there are so many museums in my books, ha. But the museum that is currently highest on my bucket list is the Isabella Stewart Gardener Museum in Boston. As referenced in my book, this museum is famous for the theft of Rembrandt’s Storm on the Sea of Galilee. The empty frames of all of the stolen works are still displayed in the museum, which is something I would really love to see in person. A trip is in the works so I can get some inspiration for the writing of my sequel!
Ha’i is specifically mentioned to sound similar to the Hebrew sound ‘chai.’ Right now, especially in Romanatsy, we’re having a lot of conversations about linguistics and what responsibilities fantasy authors have to get it right. Was it important to you to educate readers on Hebrew?
AM: I used a bunch of Hebrew words throughout the worldbuilding of the novel, but it didn’t come from any desire to educate. It just came from writing what I know, and it made sense to me that this society that has such historic routes and that has recruited from so many cultures would have a more normalized use of ancient concepts in ancient languages.
Of course, people have always had complex relationships with faith and religion, but Ada has a complex definition of God due to her interfaith family. I haven’t noticed a ton of discussion around faith in YA unless a book is marketed as a deep exploration of religion or spirituality. Do you think YA should have more explorations of interfaith backgrounds given the rise in interracial, intercultural, and interfaith marriages in the past few decades?
AM: I don’t actually perceive this book as religious or faith-related much at all. It comments more on organized religion as it affects cultures and societies without delving much into discussions of faith or God.
To be honest, I’m not sure I’m the best person to ask about interfaith representation. As a Jew, I grew up with everything being Christian by default. In fact, one of the reasons I wrote my character as not fully identifying as Jewish was because, when I started writing the book, I wasn’t convinced that anyone would want to read about a Jewish protagonist. So, I would argue that most mainstream Jewish stories already involve interfaith sensibilities, because Christian culture is so completely the default that Jews necessarily live in relationship with. In fiction, characters who strongly identify as Christian are almost always strongly religious. But in Judaism, and I’m sure in other minority religions, you can identify strongly with the culture while not paying so much attention to religious practice. I’d love to see more stories celebrating Jewish culture, as stories more focussed on assimilation—which are just as important—are already out there. These ideas are heavily reflected in my book by examining Renaissance society and saying, hey, why is the history we celebrate so Christian focused? There was so much else happening at this time.
AC: That's an excellent point and it's one I'm sure a lot of readers will be excited to sink their teeth into.
Art of Exile is a science fantasy and the golem Michael creates in an early chapter is first referred to as art by Ada and Michael calls it science. There have been all kinds of debates on whether the arts and the sciences are really that separate, with some arguing math is a sort of art and composition in visual arts is a science. Where do you stand on the art vs science or ‘art and science are more similar than we think’ debate and where do you stand on the line between science and fantasy?
AM: I haven’t really considered the debate. The origin of the Makers came from the idea of “man being created in the divine image” and having the job of “completing the work of the creation of the world.” When thinking about what skills it would take to literally create the world, the need for the artistry of how things look and how they work and how those aspects interact all seemed of equal importance to me. This is where the concept of the Maker Guilds came from–all of the different skills necessary to create the world and the life within it. I’ve been inspired by the “Renaissance man” concept from a young age, and with the idea that these historic figures were just as much masters of biological sciences and engineering as they were of art–I think I’ve always considered them overlapping forms of innovation. The question of what defines art is something that comes up for me a lot as an English teacher. I’m always trying to relay how words can paint pictures with descriptive imagery and can also make music through rhythm and poetry. Just as music and dance and a painting on the wall can tell a story without words.
You can only try one of these in Italy: pizza, gelato, tiramisu, assassin spaghetti, or eggplant parmesan. Which one do you eat?
AM: Fun fact, the scene in the first chapter where Ada visits the David statue was inspired by my own trip to Italy. So I have had the pleasure of trying many of these already, though the fact that I keep Kosher did limit my options. But due to being loyal to NYC pizza, I’m going to have to say gelato. And coffee. Italian coffee is chef’s kiss.
AC: I would pick gelato, too. New York-style pizza is pretty bomb
Besides color, were there other reasons why specific stones were chosen for each Guild?
AM: Yes! I went through a short phase where I was into the energy of stones, and while the vibes of the colors were definitely a strong influence on my choices, I did also consider some of their attributed mystical and emotional properties.
We have three love interests: Kor, Rafe, and Michael, all three of which satisfy different archetypes that are common in romance arcs. Which romantic archetype do you usually gravitate to while reading and writing?
AM: Ooh this is a tough one. My instinct is to say the bad boy in an enemies/rivals to lovers dynamic because those are just so fun to read and write. But the truth is that I’m equally drawn to “more realistic” romantic dynamics and the concept of choosing one’s best partner based on building something together as opposed to “falling” for each other due to the passion that can sometimes ignite as a result of the interaction of unhealthy traits. If I think of my favorite relationships in books, there’s a nice mix of fiery relationships where their shared love language is emotional tantrums as well as deeply caring and respectful ones. The one dynamic I like the least is “friends to lovers.” I have a lot of thoughts about why the “best friend” archetype rarely works for me, but that’s a rant for another time, ha.
AC: This would honestly roughly be my answer as well. I love enemies-to-lovers and I love it when the couple continues to choose each other every single time as an active choice
If you had to do your own presentation for the Guild selection, what would you do?
AM: Ouch. A tough question. I’m not similar to Ada in most ways, but her tendency to dabble in different talents without finishing anything–that definitely comes from my own experience. But hey, I finished this book, so that’s something I could certainly submit! I suspect that I would guild as a Sophist, considering my background is in clinical therapy, I currently work as an educator, and I’m clearly also a storyteller–all Sophist traits. But I also have a lot of Artisan leanings even if my artistic and musical skills haven’t ever been fully-developed. But since I thankfully do not have to submit a Gallerie to Quorom, I won’t torture myself into thinking which of my unfinished projects I’d consider worth finishing.
We have direct references to Samson and Deiliah and Jesus. Was there a particular religious figure that you wanted to bring in but couldn’t find room to do so?
AM: I wasn’t really considering religious figures per se. In fact, I think many religious people might consider these references leaning into heretical territory. The book has a bit of an alternate history element where it seeks to explain historical and mythological concepts within the context of science. So Jesus and Samson are referenced as historical figures who may have had the genetic abilities discussed in the book, which would explain the miracles attributed to them. There are also some subtle references to some less ancient Jewish historical figures as well. One example of this is that the character Michael Loew is intended to be a descendant of Judah Loew, the renowned Maharal of Prague.
I was raised Catholic so I always find it so interesting when people do new things with religious figures and stories. Why Samson and Delilah?
AM: The story of Samson and Delilah is mentioned to explain the in-world genetic ability of Nazir. Nazirs within the story can amplify the strength of others if they abstain from certain activities such as cutting their hair and drinking alcohol. I invented this concept inspired by the real life Jewish concept of Nazir–a person who takes an oath to dedicate himself to God for a certain period of time. Most Nazarites were not granted super-strength in return for their dedication, but the story of Samson’s strength, and loss of it when his hair was cut, was what inspired the amplification concept in the book.
There's all kinds of advice out there in regards to the writing process, but I've found that the best thing to do is experiment with a lot of authors' processes until you find a combination that works for you. What's your process like?
AM: My process is so chaotic that I wouldn’t be able to define it as any specific thing. It may possibly involve a lot of writing scenes I’m in the mood of and then cutting out any part of the story that I’m never particularly in the mood to write, ha. What I will say is that I am very much a discovery writer. My two favorite writing metaphors are: The Gardner–I plant seeds and know that they’ll grow into something later–and The Sculptor–I’m not creating the story per se, rather it’s already in the stone, and I’m just chipping away to reveal it. I also very much find that my stories solidify themselves in the editing phases. I write in layers, revising scenes many times, addressing new layers with each pass. If someone looked at early version of one of my manuscripts, they would have no idea how on earth it would be something that could possibly be puzzled into a final novel.
We talk a lot in writers spaces about how you have to read modern authors to be part of the conversation going on in our genres. What books are your book in conversation with?
AM: Readers have said that The Art of Exile reminds them of some of the YA from the 2010s, and I know exactly what they mean by that. I do think my book is one that has nostalgic elements while melding those elements with the trends of the modern market. I would also say it’s “in conversation” with other Jewish Fantasy books. Jewish representation of any kind in mainstream fantasy fiction was extremely rare for a long time, but in recent years, there have been so many excellent Jewish Fantasies hitting the shelves. When I first started writing this book, I didn’t think anyone would want to read a Jewish book, and I kept the Jewish rep very minimal. But as other Jewish authors published such beautiful Jewish fantasies, I was inspired to make it a lot more overt.
Another conversation that I think my book contributes to, is the way that many perceive YA fiction as something that should model appropriate behavior for teens. Many people want YA books to try hard not to present anything controversial or “problematic” so as to make sure they are giving good messaging to teens. But I don’t believe that all books need to do that. I don’t write characters that are role models for readers, and I’m not trying to tell my readers what is acceptable and what isn’t. I’m trying to make my readers think. And I attempt to do that by writing characters who will never get it all right, who will never always make the right decisions, who will sometimes be wrong about what’s acceptable, or do something even when they know it’s not–because that’s how real humans are. My book purposely pokes at a lot of very popular YA tropes that are often ignored as having anything inherently problematic about them, and it brings uncomfortable realities to the surface. The magic school for instance–this book asks “wait but if there’s a magic school, how is it ethical that they’re withholding their resources from the rest of the world?” It pokes at concepts of secret societies and blood consumption and asks, “Wait, what is the origin of these tropes? And are they harmful?” (Spoiler alert, yes, they’re deeply rooted in historical antisemitism.) Some readers haven’t liked that my MC has a crush on her 21 year old mentor–but have they questioned other YA characters falling in love with immortals–a very common trope for which there is a much larger age gap than this one? As readers, we often don’t think about whether we should be uncomfortable about situations where the problem itself is not brought to our attention, but this book brings these things to our attention, and without telling readers what they should think is right or wrong, it gives them space to feel purposely uncomfortable about these classic tropes.
Author as Brand feels like a big part of being a writer these days. What do you want your Brand to be?
AM: The real dream is that the books do well enough to speak for themselves so I can be the unimportant entity in the background who just happened to write it. But if I had to have a brand, I think I would want it to be as someone who is known for helping other writers navigate publishing, as that is something I’m very passionate about.
In terms of the brand of my books, I’d love to become known as someone who writes stories with realistic character and relationship development, and also stories that–without losing their entertainment and escapist factor–make people think.
If I had an online brand for something other than my writing, I’d want it to be for something like pairing books with perfumes. That and showcasing an excellent mug collection.
But in reality, my brand will probably just be “the one in the hat,” as that’s what my teacher brand is, ha.
Some authors focus on food, others on clothes. What's your favorite way to show time and place/to worldbuild?
AM: I love detailed sensory imagery such as smells and textures and atmospheric interiors and architecture. But my favorite things to worldbuild are the things that bring the world to life through the uniqueness of their contrasts. Like the Maker culture of modern + Renaissance with Hoverjousting and their clothing fashion of Renaissance inspirations with modern flair. Or the way their scientific innovations pair the advanced technology with the focus on ecology and the natural world.
What's next on the horizon for you?
AM: I’m buried in finishing the sequel to The Art of Exile at the moment, but there’s a project that’s been on the back burner for me for a few years that I’m extremely excited to get back into once this series is complete. All I’ll say about it, for now, is that it’s a Shakespeare retelling and that if I can succeed in transferring the idea in my head to the page–I think it has the potential to be something really special. But it’s very ambitious, and I may not be smart enough or talented enough to write it yet.
Are there any writers you wanna give a shout-out to?
AM: I’d love to shout out some other authors publishing Jewish YA Fantasy. A. R. Vishney, Aden Polydoros, Sacha Lamb, Kalyn Josephson–all of them have put out some really excellent books that I highly recommend checking out for some new twists on YA Fantasy.
Thank you, Andrea!
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